new trails being cut

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Willy
Posts: 47
Joined: October 24th, 2010, 6:27 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Willy » December 20th, 2011, 8:42 pm

While we're on the topic of Snowbowl...

The Ski Area Citizens Coalition just ranked Snowbowl fourth-worst among ALL ski areas in the U.S.on matters environmental responsibility.

http://www.skiareacitizens.com/index.php?nav=worst_ten

Bravo. Way to represent, guys. A few slow claps. You'd have locked first place if they'd included cultural sensitivity in their metrics--but hey, pumping sewage uphill 14 miles and 4000 vertical feet with coal-electricity should put you on the podium next year.

Mr. Fox
Posts: 15
Joined: February 24th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Mr. Fox » December 20th, 2011, 11:33 pm

Stormluver,

You said. "It's ok to strip mine a mesa as well for coal and deplete the regional aquifer of the water in order to transport it as a slurry." Obviously attempting to point out hypocracy.

I think that's Peabody Coal and Black Mesa you're talking about. Wikipedia says... "Peabody Coal is the largest private-sector coal company in the world. The Peabody Energy company was originally founded as Peabody, Daniels & Company in 1883 by Francis Peabody, the son of a prominent Chicago lawyer." I don't think they're Navajo. I'm pretty sure they're not. In fact that was a seriously sketchy scenario up there and a major controversy in and of itself. Peabody basically took what they wanted. Some friends of mine went up there and helped some old traditionalist families that had been sheepherding on that land for generations relocate. I don't think Navajo in general is benefitting at all from that situation except that there are a bunch of crappy jobs for people, for a little while, until Peabody finishes raping their land for their own huge capital gains, and leaves the Navajo jobless again.

I think there are different factions within these tribes so when you say White Mtn. Apache makes snow with wastewater, and White Mtn. Apache is against Snowbowl. That's like saying backcountry skiers of Arizona love snowbowl, and backcoutryskiers of Arizona don't love snowbowl. Both statements are true in each case and don't indicate hypocracy.

Our culture ripped across this continent in a blink of an eye in relation to the history of these Native American cultures, and changed their worlds forever. Expecting them to assimilate in the face of that without them having some serious trouble is like expecting a Siberian Husky who is off leash, to not bolt off after a deer because you thought you trained him well. And why is it acceptable to expect assimilation? We gave them alcohol, and casinos, and ski areas, and all of the other modern problems they have. All the more reason why we should be respecting those traditionalists who are fighting for what they believe is sacred. They have something to teach our culture. They have somehow managed to try and maintain some kind of sanity, some level of hope for holding on to what they know in their blood is real. Men don't chain themselves to machines to stop a deforestation project for any less of a reason. It was not just for being dramatic for the sake of activism. These particular people who were fighting snowbowl are fighting for their cultures. It is not over until they give up, and situations like this have just about delivered the last blow to some of these people. Do we feel good about further damaging multiple cultures for the enhancement of our leisure activities? That is the major social issue in this controversy.

The land that the peaks sit on is National Forest, yes, and forever before that, these people's ancestors (great grandparents) were here, and it was some nebulous region between Hualapai land, Havasupai lands, Navajoland, Hopi land, Yavapai land, and Apache land, and the land of whatever other indigenous peoples wandered this land for over 10,000 years. I'm sure the indigenous nations fought, sometimes violently, over land ownership forever, so I agree that they are not angels. However, this issue has brought the traditionalists into a semblance of agreement. The U.S. government took and made all of this its own, and yet to these people it was still the same mountain within the same forest and plateau country, with all of the family stories interwoven throughout the landscape in a way that makes boudaries imposed by some weird culture of whiteskinned people that just arrived here from across the sea seem completely artificial. I personally don't have guilt about being here, but I think we can do better about being here, and check ourselves, and that is the first step to addressing all of the issues you pointed out. It is time for a major paradigm shift on issues such as this one. And yes this is relavant to what we are doing as skiers on this mountain, in the backcountry or in the resort.
Last edited by Mr. Fox on December 21st, 2011, 3:05 pm, edited 14 times in total.

Mr. Fox
Posts: 15
Joined: February 24th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Mr. Fox » December 21st, 2011, 12:11 am

Admin,

I have to say I agree about the inappropriate language. I'm sorry for all of my bathroom humor earlier in this. I was just trying to keep a perspective on the comedy of it all, and keep it a bit lighthearted around here. And it was such easy material....But I recognize that it was a bit childish.

To all,

I also want to say that how could you not get fired up about this topic if you live in Arizona and are a skier. This is probably one of the most diversely controversial issues that has ever surrounded any ski area anywhere. I guess I've made it clear where I stand. I have to say I appreciate the healthy debate. It has mostly been quite civil and respectful. I hope we cross skin tracks out there and shake hands, even if we don't agree on this little subject here. I think the snowbowl covers only 1% of the peaks, so 99% of what were dealing with should be material for chummy conversations.

I too hope it snows so that there is suddenly a lot of other material to write about.
Last edited by Mr. Fox on December 21st, 2011, 11:38 am, edited 5 times in total.

ricorides
Posts: 32
Joined: November 24th, 2010, 3:50 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby ricorides » December 21st, 2011, 8:50 am

Oh well... I shall click on this thread no more. Nothing new has been added to the discussion and it seems as though emotions are getting fired up.
This discussion stopped being a discussion long ago.
I still don't, and won't, think this debate is relevant anywhere on this site, even though Splitboarder played the trump card.

tripice351
Posts: 79
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 12:01 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby tripice351 » December 21st, 2011, 10:31 pm

I knew posting a thread about anything related to the expansion would probably end up this way. I don't see it being a problem as it obviously is a major issue in the Kachina Peaks. I always thought it was weird that it wasn't being discussed here. While some people have understandable and real personal issues with it, I think there is also a much larger contingent of people of who love to protest anything and everything. For them, attending a protest is a fashion statement. They don't want to hear the logic that the water coming out of their kitchen sink faucet includes reclaimed water from the aquifers of the Rio De Flag, which has up to 2 million gallons of treated wastewater dumped into it every single day. They don't care that the water they use to cook their meals, brush their teeth and bathe in has the same microscopic particles that they are so scared of. They just want to protest, cuz it's what all the cool kids are doing. And they most definitely don't care about the hypocrisy of the White Mountain Apaches using snowmaking, including the use of wastewater treated to a lower standard.

And on the original topic.. I can't wait until we get some deep storms, I want to check out those new trails.
Marc aka tripice351

Stormlover
Posts: 38
Joined: November 18th, 2010, 8:21 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Stormlover » December 22nd, 2011, 6:28 am

Well stated Mr. Fox. I understand that side of it as well. My wife worked in Window Rock for a year. To me all mtns are sacred not just this one. I just don't find the concept of reclaimed water being sprayed on it that offensive. But in the bigger picture, it's all about economic opportunities. There may be less envasive ways to exploit the environment than strip mining coal or building walkways with glass bottoms but it provides jobs. Just as a viable, ski area that can be guaranteed being open 100 days per year supports some 100 employees and numerous small businesses in town. Or, jeep tours in Sedona. Or air tours over Sedona. You can't recreate anywhere without the constant buzz of sight-seeing helicopters. Making a living off the environment and whatever employment opportunities that exist there. I find the Grand Canyon a pretty special place. One of the more offensive plans to me is the proposal by the Navajo Nation to run 1 day jet boat tours from Lees Ferry 60 miles downstream to the Little Colorado River where the paying passengers, guides, and boats would then be helicoptered out. More motors and noise for another special place in N. Arizona. It's important that we all stay open minded and read and learn so we can effectively evaluate our's or other people's concerns for the well-being of special places.

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » December 22nd, 2011, 6:31 am

Best post so far! ^^^^

zesue
Posts: 19
Joined: October 21st, 2010, 3:12 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby zesue » December 22nd, 2011, 9:33 am

Peabody coal is not tribally owned, and many Hopi and Navajo people are outraged about the lopsided deal that the coal company got for pristine water from the aquifer. Native people in this country have a long and sad history with the U.S. gov and business interests colluding for the benefit of a few greedy people. By the way many of our local tribal members view their tribal governments as corrupt and heavily influenced by outside interests (this sounds familiar?).

Stormlover
Posts: 38
Joined: November 18th, 2010, 8:21 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Stormlover » December 22nd, 2011, 12:38 pm

zesue wrote:Peabody coal is not tribally owned, and many Hopi and Navajo people are outraged about the lopsided deal that the coal company got for pristine water from the aquifer. Native people in this country have a long and sad history with the U.S. gov and business interests colluding for the benefit of a few greedy people. By the way many of our local tribal members view their tribal governments as corrupt and heavily influenced by outside interests (this sounds familiar?).


K, very good then. But the powerplants themselves are tribally owned, no? At least the one near Farmington, I'm not sure about Page. And I'm sorry but the whole casino thing just ruins the culture argument for me. It's about making a buck where and when you can. And it won't be any different 100 years from now.

But I will concede we might have wished we had pumped that icky relaimed water back into the C aquifer to offset the ever growing population and water needs of N. Arizona rather than making snow. But I think there are more pressing society issues (already mentioned above) to deal with than reclaimed water on the peaks.

kylef41
Posts: 4
Joined: November 22nd, 2011, 8:55 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby kylef41 » December 22nd, 2011, 3:21 pm

Not sure if there are others but the largest power plant near Farmington is Four Corners which is owned by 5 utilities and operated by APS. The page power plant is Called Navajo and is owned by 4 utilities. APS owns part but SRP owns the majority and operates it. Unfortunately the reality of these plants and the mining that feeds them is that they provide some of the best and highest paying jobs in an area that desperately needs them. Like snowmaking it's easy to blast things when it doesn't affect being able to feed your family. Everyone wants energy and everyone wants clean drinking water but as can be seen by this topic there are a lot of oppions on how that should happen.

TOURJEE
Posts: 7
Joined: January 7th, 2011, 7:19 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby TOURJEE » December 22nd, 2011, 7:53 pm

[/quote]And I find building casinos on Tribal Land offensive. It's ok to strip mine a mesa as well for coal and deplete the regional aquifer of the water in order to transport it as a slurry. It's ok as long as it's on the Nation? Sorry but this opens a whole pandora's box on today's society. I would think perhaps a jobless rate of 50% and rampant alchoholism might be more of a rallying cry. Hypocrisy goes full circle but really the White Mtn Apache Tribe makes snow with reclaimed water and yet they are or were a plaintiff on the lawsuits against Snowbowl. Is it so cut and dry as to what is getting pissed on? It's a societal deal and frankly the ski area lies in a National Forest and is not on Tribal Land. Religious complaints not withstanding it's a done deal. Move on and perhaps focus on issues that you can have an influence over.[/quote]

^^^
this.

why is it okay for a tribal nation to make $$$ using said reclaimed water to make snow??? I am not against man made snow and sunrise's use of similar water makes me wonder what everyone is fussing about. Is it perhaps more of an issue that came about hundreds of years ago when this land was taken from its rightful users? What differentiates the sunrise situation from ours? That is a serious question as I don't really know the anwser. Could anyone enlighten me?

Mr. Fox
Posts: 15
Joined: February 24th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Mr. Fox » December 22nd, 2011, 8:43 pm

I feel the need to clarify a statement I made earlier, referring to the "crappy jobs" up at the mine. I recognize that that is a pretty ignorant way of putting it, and that there are probably good high paying jobs there. However, the only entity that truly benefits from such and enterprise is Peabody. There may be 50 years of Coal Mining to be had there, and when its gone. Peabody is gone (and stinkin' rich), and so are the jobs, and so is the health of a huge section of the land, and that is what the Navajo will be stuck with there. No jobs, and a ravaged land that will take thousands of years to heal. Makes you wonder if it was even worth it, for 50 years of jobs.

I also would like to reiterate that although there may be some hypocracy going on with some of these protest groups, when attempting to point out that hypocracy, it is importand to keep in mind that White Mtn. Apache is not composed of a group of people who all agree with each other. So the whole process of even creating a ski resort in the White Mtns was probably a huge controversy within the Apache Nation itself, and we will never know. I've have no connection there, but I know that it is complicated on the reservations I have been on, just like it is complicated and polarized even amongst us backcountry skiers. I take my stance only from the certainty I have that there are truly strong, good and spiritual people of all Nations who are trying to live a good and simple traditional life, and are having their meager existances walked all over by Industry.

Again I really appreciate the respectful debate here, and most of you are class. And Tripice, FYI, I am not a cool kid, I never have been one, and from the way you talk, I'm guessing I'm old enough to be your uncle, I definitely don't drink Flagstaff city water because I live near Williams and have a springfed well, and you have illustrated very well my reason for that. Furthermore I've never taken part in a protest, but I'm starting to think that I should find out where you live, and Occupy your living room with some of my old redneck friends, 'cause you will definitely be scared....Heh, Heh, Just kidding....Take it easy homey. This stuff is not personal unless you start making it that and purposefully trying to insult people, then you start losing friends. Some stuff is getting flushed out here I think, and it is all good.

Stormluver...Good point about that glass floored thing over there in Hualapai, and all the freekin' helicoptors all day, everywhere... geez, and I did not know about those potential Navajo motor trips...that would definitely suck.

tripice351
Posts: 79
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 12:01 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby tripice351 » December 22nd, 2011, 10:37 pm

Mr. Fox wrote:I feel the need to clarify a statement I made earlier, referring to the "crappy jobs" up at the mine. I recognize that that is a pretty ignorant way of putting it, and that there are probably good high paying jobs there. However, the only entity that truly benefits from such and enterprise is Peabody. There may be 50 years of Coal Mining to be had there, and when its gone. Peabody is gone (and stinkin' rich), and so are the jobs, and so is the health of a huge section of the land, and that is what the Navajo will be stuck with there. No jobs, and a ravaged land that will take thousands of years to heal. Makes you wonder if it was even worth it, for 50 years of jobs.

I also would like to reiterate that although there may be some hypocracy going on with some of these protest groups, when attempting to point out that hypocracy, it is importand to keep in mind that White Mtn. Apache is not composed of a group of people who all agree with each other. So the whole process of even creating a ski resort in the White Mtns was probably a huge controversy within the Apache Nation itself, and we will never know. I've have no connection there, but I know that it is complicated on the reservations I have been on, just like it is complicated and polarized even amongst us backcountry skiers. I take my stance only from the certainty I have that there are truly strong, good and spiritual people of all Nations who are trying to live a good and simple traditional life, and are having their meager existances walked all over by Industry.

Again I really appreciate the respectful debate here, and most of you are class. And Tripice, FYI, I am not a cool kid, I never have been one, and from the way you talk, I'm guessing I'm old enough to be your uncle, I definitely don't drink Flagstaff city water because I live near Williams and have a springfed well, and you have illustrated very well my reason for that. Furthermore I've never taken part in a protest, but I'm starting to think that I should find out where you live, and Occupy your living room with some of my old redneck friends, 'cause you will definitely be scared....Heh, Heh, Just kidding....Take it easy homey. This stuff is not personal unless you start making it that and purposefully trying to insult people, then you start losing friends. Some stuff is getting flushed out here I think, and it is all good.

Stormluver...Good point about that glass floored thing over there in Hualapai, and all the freekin' helicoptors all day, everywhere... geez, and I did not know about those potential Navajo motor trips...that would definitely suck.


Dude.. Re-read my post, I didn't quote you or reference you. If you feel my opinions about a large amount of protesters represented yourself, you made that connection, not me. And I'd say threats against posters, jokes or not, are definitely outside the scope of this website. If you want it to get personal, feel free to PM me.
Marc aka tripice351

Mr. Fox
Posts: 15
Joined: February 24th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Mr. Fox » December 22nd, 2011, 11:30 pm

Sorry Tripice,

I guess I did assume what you said was directed at me due to our previous back and forths and how it all sounded...mostly I was trying to be funny and took it too far, woops. I want to assure you that that was tounge in cheek and not a real threat of any kind. I was only kidding. And it was stupid. I guess this thing is really going into the toilet and I'm part of the problem.

Willy
Posts: 47
Joined: October 24th, 2010, 6:27 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Willy » December 27th, 2011, 6:52 pm

tripice351 wrote:I knew posting a thread about anything related to the expansion would probably end up this way....


Then next time, don't.

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » December 27th, 2011, 8:55 pm

I also would like to reiterate that although there may be some hypocracy going on with some of these protest groups, when attempting to point out that hypocracy, it is importand to keep in mind that White Mtn. Apache is not composed of a group of people who all agree with each other. So the whole process of even creating a ski resort in the White Mtns was probably a huge controversy within the Apache Nation itself, and we will never know. I've have no connection there,


Well you are right, you don't have any connection there, either do I. But if the tribes themselves are going to file lawsuits then they better have their shit in order and if not their claims are VERY disreputable as far as I'm concerned. Now if it were groups not affiliated with their own corrupt governing organizations such as a group say called Traditional Natives For Preserving Sacred Places that may be one thing but it's not. Too much BS in this argument as far as I'm concerned. We need a functional ski area here in Flagstaff, it's good for the skiers and snowboarders and even more importantly it's good for local businesses.

Willy
Posts: 47
Joined: October 24th, 2010, 6:27 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Willy » December 28th, 2011, 8:40 am

Talk about B.S... The ski area has been there since the 1930s. Notwithstanding management, it is functional as it is. It has been functional for decades. The good snow years outnumber the bad ones by a lot. The only thing different today is the profit expectation of its latest owners. I loved watching the skiing community cower at J.R. Murray's mighty threat of just closing the Snowbowl. Right. Please do sell it. And then go back to Phoenix. Thanks.

If you want abundant chair-lift accessed snow every year move to Mt. Baker. Or actually learn to find and hike for it. You live in Arizona where the climate is arid, water is scarce and the consequences of how we get energy to pump that water are truly brutal. Thoughtlessly superimposing our every last economic and recreational whim on this place despite its aridity is (still) the thing of fools -- the Manifest Destiny of skiing in November. And it will never change the fact that ski-area skiing will always suck during dry years, snow-making or not.

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » December 28th, 2011, 8:07 pm

Barely surviving is not functional.

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » December 28th, 2011, 8:08 pm

I'm going to try and learn how to "hike for it" but that sounds like work. ;)


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