new trails being cut

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tripice351
Posts: 79
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 12:01 pm

new trails being cut

Postby tripice351 » August 9th, 2011, 11:40 pm

So I hear they are cutting some trees up there... :)

I've heard they have made a lot of progress over on Humphreys. Anyone been hiking up there or on the Skyride recently? Got any good pics? Very curious to see what is going on. I hope they are doing more than just clearcutting the new trails. There is plenty of bark beetle kill up there, and a little bit of thinning in certain areas would go a long way in terms of skiing/boarding.
Marc aka tripice351

ricorides
Posts: 32
Joined: November 24th, 2010, 3:50 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby ricorides » August 15th, 2011, 3:51 pm

Yes, indeed. I guess progress (if you wanna call it that) is always a mixed bag.

I road the chairlift yesterday, Sunday. They've made alot of progress on the next ridge north, in the aspen glades that would be uphill from the top of Hart Prairie lift. Looks to be kinda low angle and medium width with tree islands, but might be nice cruising runs in aspen glades. I would estimate the upper elevation of the work to be 10,300', but I'm not sure what the elevation of the top lift terminal is supposed to be. Also, this new area can be accessed by what looks to be a new cat track that comes off Log Jam about where Midway catwalk comes in.

I guess the one thing that is gonna irritate alot of folks is the new "upper Lava/Volcano" run. It starts off of Ridge at the rockpile, and drops down northwest down to Lava/Volcano. It looks to be fairly narrow and reasonably steep, especially at the top. My bet is it will be a bump run, wider than White Lightning but not as wide as Casino. It's gonna be a nice run, but at the expense of some some sweet tree skiing. And my bet would be that it won't be winch-cat groomed. Oh well, I guess if I'm craving some tight tree runs I'll be skinning out of the ski area.

tripice351
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Joined: October 31st, 2010, 12:01 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby tripice351 » August 15th, 2011, 10:59 pm

I don't mind the new upper L/V, and stoked if it will be an ungroomed run. Plenty of tight trees on that mountain, not a lot of ungroomed runs. There will definitely be some upset people, but an issue so close to so many hearts will never get a unanimous opinion.

For the cutting on Humphreys, the new catwalk (gotta be a name better than Upper Boo Boo) will be great access for all those trees. The runs will all be blue/intermediate. But I'm pretty sure the lift won't be in this season, so I'm hoping there won't be too much grooming on the new runs, could be interesting.
Marc aka tripice351

Willy
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Joined: October 24th, 2010, 6:27 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Willy » August 17th, 2011, 1:03 am

Aside from offending all 13 First Nations in northern Arizona, which can't be overstated, and aside from dozens of people being arrested trying to stop it, clear-cutting south-facing exposures north of Logjam makes no skiing sense. It promises a perpetual ice-slush cycle and will require constant snow-making (and wasteful energy consumption and water use) to keep snow many years. The new run above Lava will be easily and frequently wind-scoured and ruins some of the best tree-skiing on the mountain. It will begin a process of forest fragmentation, die-off and blow-down like that seen along the margins of lift line, Casino, and Volcano near Midway. The re-alignment of the Sunset lift to Midway will increase congestion below midway, where congestion is already a problem. More uphill capacity and overall skier capacity with more parking will exacerbate trail congestion and add to traffic problems in Flagstaff. But hopefully. with the Forest Service's super sneaky post-EIS approval of "recovered-reclaimed" water for use in snowmaking (Flagstaff drinking water), Snowbowl will be able to build a golf course and condos with the eventual land-trade that is sure to follow.

I could go on, but suffice to say that I grew up a season pass holder and I happily stay in the back-country now; the place has lost its soul. It embodies everything wrong about Phoenix developers and the United States Forest Service--stamped and sprayed on the side of the San Francisco Peaks with all the grace of prison romance.

tripice351
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Re: new trails being cut

Postby tripice351 » August 18th, 2011, 12:24 am

Based on the expansion plan map, the Humphreys pod is not on a true south facing aspect. The lift runs WSW, and most of the runs are aligned WSW, with the runs closest to Logjam being SW. Obviously still not ideal, but it doesn't burn off nearly as quickly as the much more truly southern exposed aspects opposite White Lightning down to Casino.

I'd guess the new upper Lava/Volcano will get just as wind scoured as the rest of the mountain when it gets windy, or at least as much as L/V.

I will agree with you that the bigger crowds will suck.. but I will still be enjoying the expansions on all the days when the big crowds don't show up.
Marc aka tripice351

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » November 5th, 2011, 9:08 pm

The new upper Lave/Volcano trail is going to be the best run on the mountain. I was hoping it would as wide as the trail below midway catwalk but whatever. Personally I thought those trees in there kinda sucked, too tight for letting em really rip. They remind me of skiing in Vermont, some good lines for a short while then an awkward move or a total closeout would ruin any flow. Now we will have a run that rips right off the top, big and fast! I also think that the wind will actually buff this trail out more often then not.

Stormlover
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Re: new trails being cut

Postby Stormlover » November 6th, 2011, 10:52 am

Willy, you're glass is half empty. You obviously have a negative opinion of snowmaking with reclaimed water. That's a another topic; wrt to your other comments glass half full is the crowds won't be any bigger because increasing the size of the parking lots is not part of the expansion plan. So unless they hike up the road the skier/rider numbers will be exactly the same. And more spread out which is part of the idea of the realignment behind the Sunset Lift. Dump less skiers off at the top of Agassiz onto mostly black runs and also allow a lift that can run on windy days when Agassiz is shut down.

Mr. Fox
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Re: new trails being cut

Postby Mr. Fox » December 15th, 2011, 9:32 am

Thankyou Willy for posting your opinion. I recognize that it is probably an unpopular one among the group of folks who use this website, and I appologize to all of you who sit on the other side of the fence. I do feel that there is a bit of a backcountry brother/sisterhood here and I love it, but I have to say I agree with almost everything Willy said. Several years ago I vowed to never give snowbowl another dollar because of the controversy, and whenever they start blowing poo poo, I'll probably steer clear of those slopes alltogether. I haven't ridden the lifts in three years. Spent 30 days in the backcountry last season. I do recognize what snowbowl and the culture around it does for the culture of backcountry skiers, and the momentum around even this website and the information and stories we gather, and I appreciate it for that, but I still have to say I don't like what has happened and I do believe there were other possible avenues to take.

I too am a snowrider (of course), so I would be full of poo if I said there isn't some part of me that doesn't get excited about the idea of that new slope that people are psyched about. So right there I understand everyone who is stoked about the expansion. I could be called a hypocrite because I did go ride lifts at Mt. Rose, and Bear Valley in the sierra last winter, but for some reason this is one stance I can't seem to change my mind about. Something about the combination of It being an extremely sacred mountain to those 13 nations, us blowing some version of human effluent on it, and then our children maybe putting it in their mouths because kids love to eat snow (and some studies have shown that this stuff still can carry some really bad entities in it even with the filtration process that it goes through). I can't help but feel that our excitement about riding snow may have gone too far and that we have stooped to new lows to make that happen here. I have friends who are elders in traditional circles at Hopi and in Navajoland and they are bumbed...heartbroken. One of them chained himslef to a machine this fall. I can understand how it would be easier to disregard their interests if you don't know them, but it has been humbling to have a connection with them and to try and understand. They don't even like that I summit these peaks sometimes. I guess every individual decides for her/himself where to draw the line.

I was proud of Snowbowl the way it was. Getting by on all natural snow. Now I laugh at the possible bumper stickers.

ARIZONA SNOWBOWL-COME GET YOUR "FACE SHITS"

or

WE'VE GOT THE DEEPEST "POO POO" ANYWHERE

Again. I recognize this as being unpopular, and go ahead, call me a dumb hippie if you want. I love the mountain. The whole thing, and all of the power, lore, and mystery that surrounds it. That is what makes the experience here so unique. I just wanted to support the stance that Willy (whoever he is) has taken. I know from my own dumb hippie experience that that power grows with your reverence, so there is no loss for you Willy.
Last edited by Mr. Fox on December 15th, 2011, 10:51 am, edited 4 times in total.

splitboarder
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Re: new trails being cut

Postby splitboarder » December 15th, 2011, 9:59 am

me thinks that the Kachinas will dance in the wilderness and on filtered, pumped, and recrystallized diarrhea...
Troy Marino is a splitboarder and on the KPAC board of directors.
KPAC Snow Summary.
Future Guidebook?!

Mr. Fox
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Joined: February 24th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Mr. Fox » December 15th, 2011, 10:18 am

I agree....The Kachinas will definitely dance wherever they please.

tripice351
Posts: 79
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 12:01 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby tripice351 » December 15th, 2011, 8:14 pm

Mr Fox.. if you are worried about the safety of the water, I hope you cook your ramen in Evian.
Marc aka tripice351

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » December 15th, 2011, 11:18 pm

tripice351 wrote:Mr Fox.. if you are worried about the safety of the water, I hope you cook your ramen in Evian.


It's not like storm clouds coming out from Los Angeles are exactly pure. I bet there are way more toxins in actual storm clouds then anyone really wants to know about. Especially the stuff coming all the way across the pond from Japan. Teach your kids to not eat the snow.

The talk about overcrowding because of parking lots sounds a little silly to me because like it or not they are coming, Pheonix has been growing and probably still is so unless you want Snowbowl to be reservations only skiing they are going to need more space. Space for parking and space for the distribution of skiers across more intermediate terrain.

The new Upper Volcano trail, best trail on the hill hands down! If you have spent any time at other resorts you would most likely agree that those trees in there SUCKED. Four good turns to a closeout is not what I would call high quality flowy skiing. I can't wait for first tracks down that on a deep wind buffed powder day.

The new Sunset quad chair? This will be one of the best parts of the improvements. It's going to alleviate pressure on Agassiz and trails off the summit, i bet it will be able to run on days that the Agassiz chair is on wind hold, it will be sweet to do hot laps on to log some vert, and when Agassiz is on wind hold we will be able to skin from midway to access the bc! What sucks about that?

Mr. Fox
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Joined: February 24th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Mr. Fox » December 18th, 2011, 8:53 pm

I recognize that this website is not a forum for political debates so I will allow myself one more response here. I can't help it.

Tripice, Raising Arizona, Whoever Else, I'm sure you've heard all this stuff before.

----- The US Geological Survey has found that even "clean" wastewater "can contain a wide range of organic chemicals, and studies conducted by Dr. Catherine Propper, a professor of biological sciences at Northern Arizona University, found that Flagstaff's treated sewage water contains pharmaceuticals, hormones, industrial pollutants, carcinogens and endocrine disruptors (Endocrine disruptors are chemicals that interfere with endocrine (or hormone system) in animals, including humans. These disruptions can cause cancerous tumors, birth defects, and other developmental disorders. Specifically, they are known to cause learning disabilities, severe attention deficit disorder, cognitive and brain development problems, deformations of the body (including limbs); sexual development problems, feminizing of males or masculine effects on females, etc). A 2007 study from the US Agricultural Research Service found that the environmental and public health impacts of using reclaimed sewage effluent for irrigation "are largely unknown"—not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Snowbowl would be the first resort in the world to use 100 percent wastewater to make its snow, and critics have raised concerns that it was unwise to approve the plan without fully understanding the long-term impacts. "When you put these substances into a delicate alpine environment like the Peaks, there are going to be big impacts to amphibians, other animals and the soil,” said Andy Bessler, an environmental justice organizer for the Sierra Club based in Flagstaff.-----

I understand that I took this quote from a biased article, and regardless of whether the above information is true or not...


.... I sincerely hope you don't cook your ramen in reclaimed wastewater.


P.S. You can teach your kids not to do something (like "don't eat snow"), but when you're not looking, they will do it anyways because they're not always smart.
Last edited by Mr. Fox on December 18th, 2011, 11:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

tripice351
Posts: 79
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 12:01 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby tripice351 » December 18th, 2011, 10:06 pm

Mr Fox.. if you use tap water, you do cook your ramen in reclaimed wastewater. And shower in it. And brush you're teeth with it. That water out of your tap used to be in your toilet. Then it was cleaned extremely well, dumped in the Rio De Flag, given the same extreme cleaning again, and then pumped out your tap. And 10 million years ago, it was dinosaur piss, and then fish piss, and then acid rain, and then you drank it. Seriously man, it's just water.
Marc aka tripice351

Mr. Fox
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Joined: February 24th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Mr. Fox » December 18th, 2011, 11:19 pm

okay seriously last one by me here.

Arizona Department of Environmental Quality regulations allow A+ class treated sewer water to contain fecal matter in three out of seven daily samples (R18-11-303 2a).

Additionally, according to biologist Dr. Paul Torrence the treated sewage effluent may also contain antibiotics, such as triclosan and triclocarban which can break down into bio-accumulating cancerous dioxins when exposed to the high altitude sunlight of the peaks. There have also been documented cases of treated sewage released into the Colorado river that have caused numerous outbreaks of norovirus among Grand Canyon rafters (Noroviruses (genus Norovirus, family Caliciviridae) are a group of related, single-stranded RNA, non-enveloped viruses that cause acute gastroenteritis in humans. The most common symptoms of acute gastroenteritis are diarrhea, vomiting, and stomach pain. Norovirus is recognized as the leading cause of foodborne-disease outbreaks in the United States). Plaintiffs involved in this ongoing lawsuit have consistently insisted that the USFS take a hard look at what might happen to the people when they come in contact with or ingest snow made from treated sewage effluent.

----It is not a valid argument that WATER IS WATER, because I am positive that you don't drink your pee, or the water straight out of Rio De Flag, and most people bring a filter or boil their water when they're out camping, and indigenous people I'm sure had their own methods back before all of these modern Municipal Water Systems. One of these was holding springs, where clean water flows directly from underground, as sacred.... "we treat these with the utmost care so we don't taint them".... which is probably somehow related to their myths around sacred mountains.... "We don't go there much because those high places are holy and must stay clean.... that in turn ensures our health" ....a logical awareness of the trickle down affect perhaps. See all this stuff is connected.... The water that the snowbowl will be using is not classified as potable. Ironically, Flagstaff gets lots of water off of the peaks...from the springs in the Inner Basin. And you're not allowed to camp up there above a certain point so that you don't poop in your city water supply. The traditional natives have a simple wisdom and we're too neurotic and narcissistic to comprehend it.

What's done is done. What will be done will be done. I'm sorry for debating and pissing on your parade. Enjoy the new trails for me please. I'll enjoy the off-pisste and pray for the sacred mountain, and I'll say no more after this quote from Ween

"Don't shit where ya eat my friend"

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » December 19th, 2011, 6:38 am

Good argument Mr. Fox, I have to say that I am not a scientist or am I a native American. I am guessing there is some truth to reclaimed water being harmful to the environment, how could it not be? But how harmful I have no idea. The arguments and points made public are very biased coming from one side or the other so the real truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I'm a skier though so I do want to have a functional and consistently open area to go to and take my kids. I would also like to see more summer recreation at Snowbowl. For a while I felt the way you do and I supported the tribes in there fight against snowmaking, I thought it was the right thing to do, but over time my feelings have changed a little. I don't like the idea of using the reclaimed water on the peaks or anywhere for that matter but it is what it is so I have excepted it and now I'm stoked to see the changes and improvements that are happening up there.

Stormlover
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Joined: November 18th, 2010, 8:21 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Stormlover » December 19th, 2011, 10:39 am

The Tribes would still be against snowmaking if well water was used instead of reclaimed water. The potential hazards of Grade A reclaimed water is just the latest strategy to derail the expansion/improvement plans.

Seems to grow pretty good grass on the lawns of Flagstaff city buildings, the campus of NAU, and golf courses. I agree that it requires more study but I also suspect the technology required to treat wastewater will also improve with time.

zesue
Posts: 19
Joined: October 21st, 2010, 3:12 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby zesue » December 19th, 2011, 11:15 pm

I doubt wether most skiers give a flying fuck wether the mountain is supplied with snow by mother nature or treated effluent. But if you think that your drinking treated effluent right now your a fucking idiot or you work a wildcat treatment plant. The argument that we just can never know is equally stupid, (let's just wait and see if our greedy and self serving decisions have a negative or positive effect). Sorry if this sounds a little harsh but you asked for
It with these short sighted bullshit statements like "it's just water" I hope who ever posted that was kidding.
Green house emissions went up by 6% in the last 5 years and snowbowl thinks it's a good idea to pump water up hill in Arizona to make snow? Do they have there heads up their asses? Yes. Will the owners make bank? Yes.

ricorides
Posts: 32
Joined: November 24th, 2010, 3:50 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby ricorides » December 20th, 2011, 7:39 am

Would the moderators please step in and delete or close this topic.

Though this has been a reasonably civil discussion, it appears as though it might get out of hand. And Kachina Peaks Avalanche Center is hardly the place to talk about Snowbowls installation of snowmaking.

Thanks.

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » December 20th, 2011, 7:55 am

Oh come on RR, I thought it was just starting to get interesting around here. :D

splitboarder
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Re: new trails being cut

Postby splitboarder » December 20th, 2011, 10:57 am

My guess is that much of this discussion will not fit the proposed new site forums.

1 Weather and General stoke
2 Snow Pack Observations, Profiles, and conditions
3 Gear Talk and Swap
4 Find a BC Partner

However... this discussion may fit into the mission statement of KPAC:
The mission of Kachina Peaks Avalanche Center, Inc. is to provide support for and to engage in avalanche education, safety training and information exchange specific to the San Francisco Peaks in Northern Arizona.


Perhaps a 5th forum titled Other.....
Troy Marino is a splitboarder and on the KPAC board of directors.
KPAC Snow Summary.
Future Guidebook?!

Kaptain Safe T
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Re: new trails being cut

Postby Kaptain Safe T » December 20th, 2011, 4:38 pm

Please and Thank you for your cooperation.....There is no need for foul language on this site...please respect the Avalanche Center as responsible and mature educational entity.

raisingarizona
Posts: 172
Joined: November 28th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: new trails being cut

Postby raisingarizona » December 20th, 2011, 4:48 pm

I think making any discussion off limits (within reason of course) entirely would hurt the sites attractiveness overall but keeping it some what civil is probably appropriate. Let's face it, we are a passionate group of people and we have strong opinions, discussion is good, hate is not. @ Splitboarder, maybe instead of weather and stoke it could just be more general? I dunno, either way it's cool to have a local forum like this, I'm stoked on the whole thing. Now if we could only get a game changer storm we might actually put our energy into what this whole site is actually about. I have my fingers crossed and I'm jonesing for some Peaks touring!

zesue
Posts: 19
Joined: October 21st, 2010, 3:12 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby zesue » December 20th, 2011, 7:40 pm

Civility huh? I know cursing really upsets people some times. I would say flippant discussion about kachinas and spraying effluent in the wilderness is more offensive.

Stormlover
Posts: 38
Joined: November 18th, 2010, 8:21 pm

Re: new trails being cut

Postby Stormlover » December 20th, 2011, 8:08 pm

zesue wrote:Civility huh? I know cursing really upsets people some times. I would say flippant discussion about kachinas and spraying effluent in the wilderness is more offensive.


And I find building casinos on Tribal Land offensive. It's ok to strip mine a mesa as well for coal and deplete the regional aquifer of the water in order to transport it as a slurry. It's ok as long as it's on the Nation? Sorry but this opens a whole pandora's box on today's society. I would think perhaps a jobless rate of 50% and rampant alchoholism might be more of a rallying cry. Hypocrisy goes full circle but really the White Mtn Apache Tribe makes snow with reclaimed water and yet they are or were a plaintiff on the lawsuits against Snowbowl. Is it so cut and dry as to what is getting pissed on? It's a societal deal and frankly the ski area lies in a National Forest and is not on Tribal Land. Religious complaints not withstanding it's a done deal. Move on and perhaps focus on issues that you can have an influence over.


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